The whites nearly killed me. Now she…was a beautiful woman…to see a black man holding a white lady like that? Oh, they almost killed me. But I can pretend…that I am brave, you know, and [that] I can beat the whole world, you see, so I just ignored them. And got into the car. [Later] when I was underground, I spent a lot of time with them. They were not very far from my hiding place and I used to visit them in the evening.

14. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED ‘KATHY’ KATHRADA ABOUT DR JAMES MOROKA,15 Who Wanted to Distance Himself from the Nineteen Other Accused, Including Mandela and Kathrada, in the 1952 Defiance Campaign Trial and Appointed his Own Lawyer16

Kathrada: Ah, then page 61–62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘I went to see Dr Moroka at his house in Thaba Nchu in the Orange Free State. At the outset of our meeting [I] suggested both of these courses of action to him. But he was not interested; he had a number of grievances that he wanted to air. Moroka could be quite haughty,’ etcetera.

MANDELA: Could be ‘quite haughty’?

KATHRADA: Haughty.

MANDELA: No, man…I don’t like the description of Moroka like that.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA:…In the first place, Moroka was never haughty. And I don’t like, in, a biography like this, you see, to make uncomplimentary remarks.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA:…I think we should have, we can say, ‘It was a disappointment to see that the leader of the African National Congress should want to disassociate himself from actions and policies which were adopted under his leadership.’…But I don’t want us to be going into the questions of him being haughty and betraying people.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: I think we should avoid that…and…you know, his children, I wrote to them when I was in prison and they wrote back, you know, to say that for the first time a good word has been said about…

KATHRADA: About their father.

MANDELA: Their grandfather.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: You see what we say about leaders, even though we may criticise them, it would be good, you see, to say that to compare him with [Yusuf] Dadoo17…[Walter] Sisulu18, you know, these are people produced by the movement…who were committed, you know, to the whole culture of collective leadership…Dr Moroka came from another school and he had these limitations, but put it in a dignified way.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA:…You see criticism must be dignified. We must be factual, we must be realistic, we must be honest, but at the same time, you know, within a certain frame because we are builders…

KATHRADA: Ja, ja.

MANDELA: When you said that a writer from the movement is not just recording, also is a builder, must contribute, you see, to the building of the organisation and the trust, you know, that should be invested in that organisation. I think you’ve said that…

15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NON-VIOLENCE

The Chief [Albert Luthuli] was a passionate disciple of Mahatma Gandhi and he believed in non-violence as a Christian and as a principle…19 Many of us did not…because when you regard it as a principle you mean throughout, whatever the position is, you’ll stick to non-violence…We took up the attitude that we would stick to non-violence only insofar as the conditions permitted that. Once the conditions were against that we would automatically abandon non-violence and use the methods which were dictated by the conditions. That was our approach. Our approach was to empower the organisation to be effective in its leadership. And if the adoption of non-violence gave it that effectiveness, that efficiency, we would pursue non-violence. But if the condition shows that non-violence was not effective, we would use other means.

16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA

KATHRADA: Did you read Gandhi too? Mandela: Oh yes. No, that’s true. No, that’s true.

KATHRADA: So, that’s true?

MANDELA: But, Nehru was really my hero.

KATHRADA:…This is the way it’s worded, page 62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘He felt some pangs at abandoning his Christian beliefs which had fortified his childhood, like St Peter three times denying Christ.’ Now, is it correct wording to say you ‘abandoned your Christian beliefs’?

MANDELA: No, never.

KATHRADA: It would be wrong, isn’t it?

MANDELA:…I say it’s absolutely untrue. I never abandoned my Christian beliefs.

KATHRADA: OK.

MANDELA: And I think it’s proper, you know, it could do a lot of harm.

KATHRADA: Exactly, ja.

MANDELA: Ja, could do a lot of harm.

17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

STENGEL: What was Ruth First like?

MANDELA: Ruth? Ruth – her death was a tragedy for South Africa because she was amongst the brightest stars in the country, in the proper sense of the word.20 I…[had] known Ruth from our university days. We were in the same university and she was progressive, and she was not the type of white who was progressive when she was with you in a room, or away from the public. If she met you in one of the corridors of the university or in the street, Ruth will stand and talk to you, very comfortable, in a very relaxed manner and she was brilliant. In any meeting where you sat with Ruth, there was just nothing but brilliance. And…she did not suffer fools, had no patience towards fools and she was energetic, systematic, hard-working and she would tax you on any type of job that you undertook and she would…make the maximum effort and to produce the best result. She was fearless, she could criticise anybody and she rubbed people, you know…in the wrong way at times. She was direct and outspoken. But at the same time she was very broad, just like her husband, Joe [Slovo], very broad.